You've done it. You've gone and scared off Dan. And I was looking forward to reading his answers to these questions. So it's time to put an end to it.
Raven,
You and I have had this discussion before. This time, however, you made me laugh out loud. Why is it always the engineers? I don't understand why you think that just because you took a couple of mechanical engineering courses, you're suddenly able to converse intelligently on cutting edge theoretical astrophysics, or evolutionary developmental biology. You're not. Engineering isn't science. It's math. The two might momentarily brush each other's elbow in the fluid dynamics area, but other than that, they are not related.
Raven, your knowledge of science is about as extensive as my knowledge of motorcycle maintenance; and there's nothing Zen about either one of those. And girl, you do know how to wield an argument from personal incredulity! I've never seen so many, it must be this way because I cannot conceive of it being otherwise's stuffed into one argument before. Bad news: your conceptions of what the universe is like are just that; your conceptions. Nothing else. The more you speak, the more it becomes apparent that the two (your conceptions and the real world) bear little resemblance to each other. You should stop, because even Jennyp51 is embarrassed for you.
Jennyp51,
Of all those who have disagreed with me here, I have the most respect for you. You have attempted to engage in discussion without being preachy (for the most part). You also seem to want to have a somewhat intellectual interaction with your religion, and have attempted to do some research into some of the things we have discussed. It's not your fault that your primary sources are knowingly lying to you. This is one of my biggest pet peeves on this topic. The best-known Christian apologists out there, people like Dr. Dino, Kent Hovind, and Answers In Genesis' Ken Ham are liars. They are knowingly and wilfully spreading lies and half-truths about the science of The Bible. Last I checked they hadn't reduced the number of commandments to nine.
When it comes to many of the old testament bible stories, like Noah's Ark, there are only two ways of dealing with them. Either one accepts that they are just stories (moral teachers have been using parables, fables, tales and stories to educate their tribes for thousands of years; why should The Bible be any different. One prominently featured character did it all the time, in fact), or one must believe that "with God, all things are possible" and that He has done impossible things and covered his tracks on many occasions, because it is impossible to reconcile the science to the book. Either the world really is 4.6 billion years old, or else God has deliberately attempted to fool us into thinking the world is 4.6 billion years old. There is no other option available to believe. Oh, wait. You could take Raven's position that all science and secular human understanding of the world is DEAD WRONG, and we are just typing to each other via this wondrous electronic medium because God arranged it, because we certainly couldn't have invented this stuff all by ourselves.
So, I'm moving on to other things for a while. Y'all can keep chattin' it up in the comments, but I probably won't be paying much attention. I do thank you all for the impressive blip on my statcounter.
Raindogs howl for the century
A million dollars a stake
As you search for your demi-god
And you fake with a saint
There's no sex in your violence
There's no sex in your violence
Try to see it once my way
Everything zen
Everything zen
I don't think so
-Bush(x)
31 comments:
Paul,
Cool, you certainly have soared in the hits counter! LOL
I bet your blog worth thingy went up too! Yay!
Hmmm... let's chat about something more fun that we can have this kind of discourse about... when life begins? The prochoice debate? lol NOT!
be well,
Dawn
http://journals.aol.com/princesssaurora/CarpeDiem/
Thanks Paul,
My tongue was starting to bleed!
Jenny, I know it may still seem a little insincere with Paul throwing in a couple of "sort of"'s and "most of the time"s in there but please still accept that this is pretty high praise from an atheist and skeptic.
As a theist and skeptic, I absolutely agree with him on two things he said.
You have discussed this issue with civility and reason which has made it a pleasure.
and,
Please be careful with those who tell you that the scientists have been in error for the last 100 years.
There seem to be a fair number of people who "in the name of the Bible" will manufacture a lot of information just to try to build credibility for the Bible.
You cannot build true faith from lies.
Please also try to be a theist and a skeptic.
Keep your faith but refuse to let others think for you, no matter how much what they say sounds like what you wish to hear.
It will keep liars from making you look foolish.
If you can manage to weed out the bull cookies from the truth, you will always be better off for it.
As Paul likes to say, "keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."
Again, take care,
Brent
Alright. I'll post my answers today since it seems the existential knife fight has calmed down.
Gotta say, though, Paul: I'm impressed, and this is further proof why you should write a book. I mean, talk about inspiring lots of discussion. Yowza!
-Dan
http://thewisdomofadistractedmind.blogspot.com/
I just haven't been able to keep up, especially with the last post -- c'mon, 94 comments! Yowza!
But it's been fun to watch and prod a couple times. Never is it so much fun to spin the wheels so quickly and observe yourself progress rapidly nowhere as it is when debating religion.
Simon
http://simianfarmer.com
Alright... I've fearlessly posted my answers.
http://thewisdomofadistractedmind.blogspot.com/2007/08/questions-questions.html
-Dan
Thank you Paul and Brent i enjoyed that. You are both far more intelligent and informed in some areas than me and i found it both hardwork and brain stretching trying to keep up with you, but i enjoyed the challenge.
When you have been a christian for a long while you forget some of the basics learnt at the beginning and take them for granted. I had to think why do i believe what i do. Now i admit to being totally worn out, with a stinking cold and a poggled brain from too much thinking.
Paul, try not to let your scepticism be a shield that hides you from the possibility that God is out there.
Brent, ask yourself if you are keeping God at a comfortable arms length. He wants an intimate relationship with you and i promise it will be a WOW!
Be blessed
Jenny <><
"He wants an intimate relationship with you and i promise it will be a WOW!"
Yup. This came out ALL wrong, Jenny.
-Dan
http://thewisdomofadistractedmind.blogspot.com/
Paul, I dont compare Engineering with Evolution. You know that that I dont think of them as the same. What I can compare is many courses in engineering deal with the same math used to fly to the moon, analyze space, force, heat, escape gravity, etc.,....These courses did help me understand some of the same concepts used with Big Bang logic. Taking chemistry, Fluids, higher theory math, etc., this doesnt make me an expert but my arguments are made were more along the lines of reason than anything. No matter what you say, I do know for a fact, that Science is rooted in the same irrational logic that Atheist judge the rational ability of God believers in terms of the begining of the universe. This is just true!!!!!!!! If you write an entry asking "Where did "?" come from".....and insert where the ? is, with your logic, (energy, space, matter, etc.,) you will be left with unanswered questions that do hold the same boxes as religious believers. I do not mean to sound arrogant. What I am saying is very DEEP...A person could write quite a thesis paper comparing the similarities. I wouldn't have the energy for it but the comparisons are quite ironic. It should leave a person who doesn't accept a God power with one thing...irrational logic has the same parallels as the acceptance of a God so humility and judgment of IQ ability on both sides of reason,.... should began to not think the other is a whacko because they disagree. ~Raven
The question is who will write an entry discussing the "?" I mentioned....It would leave a person who doesnt accept a God, to question their roots of their belief in no God. There are marvels and wondermant ahead of all Scientists or Athesist if they did this. The lovely Harry Potter dialogue often written as..."The mysterious of the universe"...that scientists blow off quickly as rational acceptance of truth only baffles my mind. As a Christian, I have pondered the marvels of a God existing often. If I was an Atheist, I would ponder the begining of my logic as well and never would I say, this is more rational that a a God existing.
For something to just exist is supernatural. Something just existing has the power to escape the point of a birth, a beginning. And yet that something according to science can also die. I can only wonder at how space, a force that can curve space, or energy or the long lists of theories; I can only wonder how such things can just exist and yet not keep itself from dying. I would find that highly irrational in terms of logic. It would just as many awe factors as a God existing to me. And yet, Atheists willl say space just existing, or energy just existing, or energy being born...they will say... this is reasonable.
~Raven
And please no anal responses about my use of theword Science. Any Science book in highschool, grade school, etc., has a chapter on evolution and another chapter on the Big Bang, etc., If Jenny doesnt agree with me on that or my broad use of the word Science, tell her to hit the library and see what hallway she will find her books.
I dont mean to sound like a bitch but I cant deal well with bullshit. ~Raven
I'm afraid i went to school before the Big Bang theory came about (shows how old i am), but yes we did evolution at school and it was in all the science books, encyclopedias etc. According to my newspaper recently we have moved on from the big bang to the Big Crunch, and Big Bounce (see my recent blog about it). It was admitted though that the pictures in all the old books of horses being shown in sequence from tiny to large as proof of evolution was actully false. If put in their actual timeline it would not show a progression of gradually increasing in size.
Jenny <><
Jenny, your comment was truly funny and cute.
I also hope my prior point was made and understood. The very first day of college, when I was considering a Mechanical Engineering degree, Dick Wysong who was the Dean, spent 6 hours showing us the mathmatical formula for escape velocity which was one of much needed to help launch the first man on the moon. We studied gravity a great deal. The good ole F=MA, was a nightmare for me at the time but I finally got it. Wysong was one of the Engineers who helped design the first Disneyland park too. He was and is genius in his own right. I loved the guy like a father.
Finally, off to my humor zone, the only libraray hallway where I can read about horses is in The Autobiography of Bill Gates. He invented them. (smiles)
~Raven
Without getting overly nasty, I believe the phrase "Don't feed the trolls" has become very applicable.
Oh, and Dan? I noticed that phrasing as well, but I WAS TRYING to be a gentleman.
You brute.
Tried to leave you a comment at your blog about your answers (basically, I liked them and wouldn't burden your blog with all the crap I threw at Paul's), but it wouldn't take.
You didn't block me did you? :)
Brent
Good God, what the hell (figuratively of course) is all this about.
I suppose I need to read down a few entries to see what you said to rile the masses..........
Rebecca Anne
Come on boys, you both know full well that was the last thought on my mind. I probably could have phrased it better but you know what i meant. Stop giggling.
Jenny <><
Sorry Jenny.
Can't stop it.
We're guys.
*giggle, giggle*
Brent
<<<Sorry Jenny.
Can't stop it.
We're guys.
*giggle, giggle*
Brent>>>>
Which as every woman knows the universal truth of 'we're guys' means that they are all still 12 years old! Farts, burps and innuendo... @@
be well,
Dawn
Hey Paul, I haven't been here in awhile, b/c I don't have computer access at home for a month, but I just mosied by. It appears that you ignored the verses I gave you about Jesus calling himself the Son Of God, not just the Son of man, in the last comments section. I figured since you stated, in a posting, no less, that Jesus never said he was the son of God, and that I gave you verses, that you would correct yourself and post the verses. Do you have the intestinal fortitude to do so. Or do you selectively choose what you post? I am saying this b/c I am frustrated that you are being very selective, and then saying that we Christians are not intellectually honest, or so it appears to me. So you be what you want us to be, and post the verses, and respond to them, please. I am looking forward to seeing the verses, and hearing your response to them, and how you deal with the fact that Jesus said them, and would still be considered a "good person" and a "good prophet". Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this, and for being open. :)
Krissy :)
http://journals.aol.com/fisherkristina/SometimesIThink
Dawn,
I have two 'boys', one is called my husband, and they are experts at all the things you mentioned.
Jenny <><
Paul, what is up with the dates for comments? I think AOL has another glitche to fix...~raven
Canada, and most other parts of the world, put the day before the month when writing out dates. Is that what you're talking about Raven?
Personally, I always envied Paul for his time and date stamp in his journal. I like that "o'clock" at the bottom.
-Dan
http://thewisdomofadistractedmind.blogspot.com/
Ahhhh...thanks Dan....I didnt know that is how Canada does the dates...new land info for me....cool..~Raven
Paul, I wrote some Atheists on YOutube and plan on doing a video about this tonight..I really feel this subject needs to be dived into....
With all sincerity and respect, this topic is highly overlooked and deserves a good digging into...~Raven
I have 3... one being my husband... and honestly they have made my poor dd into one of them... since she is the youngest! LOL
be well,
Dawn
And you say there is no heaven?
HA!
http://www2.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/january2000/posts/25617.shtm
It has been discovered.
So there.
Brent
Paul, still waiting for a response. Take care,
Krissy :)
http://journals.aol.com/fisherkristina/SometimesIThink
Krissy, I did answer you in the comments. I am not going to make a post about it. I'm done talking about it for now. However, to respond to your concerns, I did look very closely at the bible verses you quoted to me, and at several others you did not, but are also used as common examples of whether or not Jesus claimed divinity. They are not, to me, as clear and obvious as you seem to suggest. All I come away with is a sense that the man liked to play word games. He never answered the question directly. Rather he replied with a question of his own, or made an allusion to old testament prophecies. Nowhere can I find a verse in which someone asks, "are you the son of God," and Jesus says, simply, "yes."
Having said all that, I find the very idea of debating whether or not Jesus ever said the words attributed to him in the bible to be flat out silly. There is only one source: The Bible. And attributing veracity to it can only be done by means of a circular argument. "Jesus is God because the Bible says so. The Bible is authoritative because God says so." As an atheist, you can understand my problem with this reasoning. If I do not accept one of the propositions, the other is unsupportable. The Bible is a collection of writings that have been copied and recopied, edited and translated, and edited again, and translated again, and copied some more, and so on , and so on. We know for a fact that later sources disagree substantially from earlier sources, and that the Bible has, indeed changed over the centuries. I can not accept that it carries any authority at all.
-Paul
Thank you for the comment. I have also updated about an experience I had at the cemetary in a new entry. You can check it out if you like.
http://journals.aol.com/tarastomsgirl/LifeisWonderful/
Tara
Hey, Paul. I hadn't been around for a while, so figured I'd stop by to see how you are. Seems to me that you are just fine. Amen to that. =) Tina
Hi,
I wrote something SORTA KINDA but not really on what your talking about Mines more the less on Religion and gay rights but.. I thought I would share it anyways..
http://journals.aol.com/cmarlow330/ChristophersJournal/entries/2007/08/10/you-know-its-just-sad.......-people-cant-accept-people/1276
Hope you will check it out
Christopher
Interesting comments on the Bible, I have my basic tents of faith but in no way a literalist with that book. It's a nice directional guide, a useful tool when one is in need of reading how someone else got thru a rough patch, or just the beautiful poetry of Psalms. Either or, we know that in the myriad translations there are certain words that don't even exist in, say Greek. Translating from Hebrew they just made it up as befitted human need. Putting such utter blind faith in the words of men is always dangerous, no matter the era. Even Mao's Little Red Book. It's all human, all given to frailty and foible I'd say. On to happier things, loved reading those lyrics again, haven't heard it in awhile. CATHY
http://journals.aol.com/luddie343/DARETOTHINK/
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