Tuesday, October 24, 2006

A poor argument

"Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think." --George Bernard Shaw

   Earlier this week Kate, at
An Analysis of Life posted an entry in which she related a comment she had received on an older entry about evolution. The comment, from Raven, of RebukeTheWorld, took the familiar form of a creationist's straw man argument against evolution.
   Remember, a
straw man argument occurs when the arguer creates an imaginary position they claim is held by their opponent, and then attacks that position. It is an invalid argument, because the real position held by their opponent is never properly addressed.
   By way of an example, here is the comment Raven left:
Evolution isnt very honest...Skepticism...logic....but really the science in evolution usually starts with the big bang. Big Bang is all about faith. I'm actually writing an article about this tomorrow...but here is the faith....the first molecule...the first atom...the first matter...it started...but what started before the start?...Nothing is the start....matter just appears...its the same argument people use in who created God....how can God always exist?....When I think of what is most probable...to think matter is sooooooooo powerful that it can create itself from nothing and compare that with a possibility that a God created life...the later makes more sense...more possible...if one doesnt believe in a God and excepts science than they must ponder this...that first matter was pretty powerful...

I have friends of all beliefs...wedebate this stuff a lot but when you think on it....science cant explain something always existing...in human lingo..its called faith

~Raven
I tried to reply in the comment thread, but my response ran over the 2000 character limit for comments, and I ended up mailing it to Kate instead. I wanted to reproduce it here, because I think there is an important point to be made. Here is what I wrote to Kate:
   Unfortunately, Raven has committed one of the most basic errors of critical thinking. She has parroted what she has heard or read elsewhere from people who are less than honest. People like Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis, and Kent Hovind, of Dr. Dino are guilty of spreading information that is, in some cases a distortion of the truth, and in other cases, flat out lies.
   The fact is that the study of evolution makes absolutely no claims whatsoever about the big bang, or other theories about the beginning of the universe. The study of evolution doesn't begin until living organisms actually appeared on the earth, which happened more than ten billion years after the beginning of the universe. Even then, the study of how life first arose still does not fall under the umbrella of evolutionary theory. That is a study all to its own called abiogensis, and is very hypothetical. The study of evolution does not begin until we can find the earliest fossil remains of actual, multi-cellular organisms. And from that point on, the evidence supporting evolutionary theory is significant, and mountainous. Common descent is a fact. No biological scientists refute it.
   The big bang theory, which falls more properly into the realm of physics and astronomy, is completely different from evolution, and cannot be discussed in the same argument. Even so, Raven has repeated inaccurate claims about that, as well. No scientist studying the big bang theory of the beginning of the universe claims that before the big bang there was nothing. Not one. The fact is, Raven is correct. Something cannot come from nothing. The laws of conservation of matter and energy tell us this. So, before the big bang there was something. We just have no idea what that was, because the violence of the big bang was such that it completely erased whatever was there before. There had to be something, we just have no way of seeing what it was. However,the big bang is still a theory very well supported by evidence. In fact, there were several recent observations taken by scientific teams that confirmed predictions made by big bang theory. This theory has a lot of weight. Like evolutionary theory, scientists are finding more and more that they can make predictions based upon our current understanding of the theory, and find those predictions later borne out by observation and experiment.
   No, Raven, and many like her, simply feel that science is an attack on their faith, and feel compelled to attack back. Unfortunately, they fail to grasp the most basic tenet of warfare: "know thy enemy." They refuse to actually research the things they are attacking, and so many times, they shoot wide of the mark.
-Paul
   Arguments like the ones Raven repeated here really annoy me because they are so intellectually dishonest. Now, I'm not annoyed at Raven. She has simply fallen into an intellectual trap set up by her religion. She's a Christian, and the arguments she is repeating came from people who represent themselves as Christians as well. As such, they have had, from a very early age, the big ten rules of conduct hammered into their heads.
   Let me see, which one is it? Oh, yes, number eight (or number nine, depending on which version of Christianity you subscribe to): thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exodus 20:16. While this commandment's language suggests a very specific interpretation within the law, it has generally been understood and taught to be a universal proscription against lying.
   So, when Raven, as a Christian, reads or hears a statement made by another professed Christian, she automatically makes the assumption they are telling the truth. Good on her. I like to always assume the best about others as well. Unfortunately, that doesn't always work. And this is what annoys me so much.
   The people with whom these arguments originate, people like Ken Ham and Kent Hovind, are not stupid. These are highly educated people. They know their arguments are fallacious. They have carefully constructed them to be so. They use quasi-scientific language, and allude to real evidence supporting the bible's creation stories, but, when pressed, that evidence never seems to actually be forthcoming.
   Now, Raven may not have got these arguments straight from the horses' mouths. They have been perpetuated far and wide across this here Internet of ours. Her source was probably repeating them honestly, as was that person's source. But, the people who originally created those arguments know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that they are based on lies, half-truths, and misdirections. These are people at the very heart of Christian apologetics in North America, and they are breaking, knowingly, and willfully, one of the sacred commandments they have been charged, by God, with upholding. And that hypocrisy is what really annoys me.

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21 comments:

Anonymous said...

PART THREE


I correlated evolution and the Big Bang not because they're the same but because they're A+B+C for many who trust scientific theories. I do KNOW the difference but here is my criticism. I know only a few honest critical thinkers. Many will not allow their mind to suggest an impossibility. If you don't believe in a God and support the Big Bang then you must believe in "nothing" as possible. You must believe in a power that can create life because its start is suggested in the Big Bang had a Nothing existence at some point. Faith, my friend.

Few spend time analyzing that and that doesn't surprise me. Its obviously true! Its 100% true that NOTHING had to exist. It takes someone willing to be honest about it. And it also says, that if you can believe that the "something" prior to the Big Bang has always existed than most certainty it should be easy to believe that a God can always exist too. You don't need to believe in a God but a God can possess the attribute of omniscience. This shouldn't be a far stretch in logic if you can accept the Big Bang Nothing Once Existing Theory. We can run around the Merry-Go-Round with this "something" before this first dark matter or whatever...but if you spend time on this "something" you will discover faith and not science in life's true beginning.

Anonymous said...

PART TWO

Logic to consider- Just because we see new stars being born in the universe doesn't mean that the universe began as the Big Bang. Its an assumption. Its a possibility, yes but its still an assumption. If we want to play with words, the reason why the Big Bang is correlated to Evolution is because evolution starts conveniently with a living organism. I wrote an email to Kate and it was like this. A + B=C. A is the Big Bang. B is evolution and C is life today. Its like saying that even though the sperm and egg haven't yet collided to create a life, it would be wrong to suggest that the baby isn't correlated to the sperm and egg. Evolution starts with a living organism but where most people fail to be honest is they in their hearts call it facts but speak words like theories. Science assumes, because one species looks like the other that they came from each other. They could just be similar species and didn't evolve from another. Its a lovely theory but again, its based on assumptions. Can a blue bird have its start as a blue bird and always be just a blue bird? Cant a Crow have its start and always be just a Crow? Cant a bird with humongous wings found in caves always been a bird with bigger wings? It is a possibility. If you rely on probabilities, this assumption has just as much likelihood as evolution.

The Big Bang for most evolutionist is the start of life. They tend to believe in both. There is nothing wrong with correlating the sperm/egg with the baby that pops out 9 months later. Its a sound argument. One sperm, isn't a baby. One Egg, isn't a baby but both had to be to create life. For those who believe in Evolution and God such as Steven Hawkings a notable CRITICAL THINKER by the way, he doesn't have all the answers. For those who believe in a higher power and evolution, then the Big Bang theory can be true still or not. Some believe God just let life evolve on its own and had nothing to do with it from there.

Anonymous said...

PART 1-b

Here is where your illogical: Nothing has to exist to support the Big Bang Theory. If you spent time thinking on this it can feel crazy. Its a dig that's profound. But to negate the NOTHING and call it a SOMETHING is denial.

You can say that there was something before the Big Bang and we don't know what that is but if you wish to say that, then what was before that something or before that something? Keep going and see where your logic ends up at.  We still end up with the same erroneous scientific approach that something has always existed which is called FAITH. This is the same argument you make to believers that God cant always exist. Many say prove that. Something cant create itself from nothing so from a logical stand point, matter must have at some point had the power to do so. Its wrong to blow away faith observations. Faith is to believe in the unseen and un-provable. Science draws probable logic and without sight. Its why the Science books I read as a child are false. It must always change and many hold onto it as truth but conveniently say its theory. You really have to have a lot of faith to believe Man came from Ape. I know all the science in the evolution theories but they are full of assumptions based on more than likely so and not 100%.

Anonymous said...

PART ONE

Paul..I do love your straight forward approach. Your not a BS person and I respect that but nor am I. I sense a debate coming on and I'm ready for it. Just be nice. I'm a woman with hormones.lol..I'm also a Christian with friends on all sides of the fences...I enjoy differences...I think people get that pretty quickly about me......OK..heres my response....

Evolution isn't the Big Bang. I'm aware of that!!!!!!!! The reason why there is a correlation is because one happens before the other because many people who support evolution, support the Big Bang approach to the beginning of the universe. There are a some who accept that there is a God or a higher power behind the very beginning but my argument isn't based on those. I offered the correlation for the many who tend to believe in both.  

Anonymous said...

Raven, I suspect that Paul will having something more intelligent than myself to say, but I have to make a few comments.

I don't understand your explanation for why the big bang and evolution are so connected.  You say: "The reason why there is a correlation is because one happens before the other because many people who support evolution, support the Big Bang approach to the beginning of the universe."  Just because one happens before the other doesn't seem much of a connection to me.  And what does the fact that many who believe in one of the theories believe in the other have to do with anything? If I believe in toasters and evolution; does that mean toasters don't exist?  

Evolution doesn't prove or disprove god because it makes no claim about how things started.  You're sperm/egg example fails because though both of those may be needed to create a baby, even if the big bang were proved false this would have NO effect on our current understanding of evolution.

You say: "many hold onto it as truth but conveniently say its theory."  You do realize what scientists mean when they use the word "theory", right?  It has a very different meaning than when a lay person uses it.  (http://wilstar.com/theories.htm)  Do you believe in gravity even though that's often called a theory? :)

You say: "I know all the science in the evolution theories but they are full of assumptions based on more than likely so and not 100%."  That's a pretty big comment.  Could you let us know what some of these assumptions are, and how they undermine all the evidence supporting evolution?

Take care,
Alec

p.s.:By the way, when you get medicine, do you accept the medicine produced based on the theory of evolution, or do you take the stuff from a few hundred years ago? :)
 

Anonymous said...

Sorry for the double post:

Fixing the link from previous post (might have to copy and paste it for it to work):

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

And while I'm at it, sorry about the typos...should have waited until morning to post. :)

-Alec

Anonymous said...

aleclynch -IN response

....the only way that their is a correlation is by an continuum of thought..the A + B= C, that I had mentioned earlier.....so yes...the big bang could go away and you would have evolution as it is...the reason why I suggested a correlation is its easy to begin ones reasoning with a "living organism"...I didn't need too do that and it seems I've confused some by wanting to talk about ALL of it at the same time....so lets just discuss the Big Bang Nothing theory....really that is the premise of this conversation..

The comment I wrote to Kate that Paul has posted is a comment about BOTH....I didn't slide them together as one in logic..although I can see how its been misunderstood because its written poorly....If you read the comment..I said the beginning of evolution...the beginning meaning....the Big Bang and not the first living molecule or atom in evolution....these are different firsts..but since many believe in both I had no problem discussing both of them in that comment...When I wrote "The science in evolution usually starts with the Big Bang"..I should have written.."The science in evolution usually starts with ANOTHER theory, the Big Bang, for most evolutionist thinkers."

That would have made sense..and Kate can vouch that I responded to her with knowing the difference because she too thought I didnt get it

I would imagine that most who read my blog would know that I would have these science basics down......so I apologize for not making that clear.....it was late when I posted that and I seldom read prior to posting..

So... aleclynch..Any thoughts on the NOTHING start in the typical scientific belief in the beginning of the universe?

Anonymous said...

Also to add with why I discussed ALL..A=Big Bang...B=Evolution..C=life today

Is when you truly take on critical thinking and start with A..you will find FAITH...whether your an agnostic, atheist, or religious person...When a whole scientific approach to ALL life from its start to the middle and none is divinely woven..there is a trickle down affect on "reason"...that touches all of it..but that might be best argued by a philosopher..lol...

Anonymous said...

What a wonderful post! I really enjoyed reading it. Thank You.
Shadie

Anonymous said...

I won't get in the middle of this, I've argued this silly subject too many times in my life. Nobody ever changes anybody's mind. But I'll point out two parts of the argument that are typically aimed in the wrong direction.

First, when people talk about "evolution theory", I don't understand why the focus is on the theory that man evolved from lower creatures and not on the appearance of life itself. Seeing the results of radiation on the reproduction of living organisms is compelling evidence that organisms can mutate and the sun is radiation incarnate, not to mention the growth of man's dimentions as large people procreate and beget even larger offspring, resulting in the NFL and NBA as we know it. When the argument for the initial formation of life is so much harder to prove. Amino acids lying in a pool that spontaneously form a membrane and pair themselves with other amino acids is not an easy thing to get my mind around. Kick starting a heart that has been dead with a difribulator is one thing, but a bolt of lightning or some shock from surface friction bringing the primordial ooze to life is some else entirely.

Also, I do believe that the matter that makes up the universe has always existed. Concepts like infinity and never evnding space are difficult to fathom, but that doesn't mean they can't be fact. If infinity doesn't exist, then where will the matter that makes up the universe dissapear to? No, it will always exist in one form or another and always has.

Fred

Anonymous said...

It's just hard to climb out of "belief" when you are the product of a few generations of that "faith." It has only been in the past year that I have found myself going from agnostic to atheist and I still find that years of indoctrination have placed habits in my mind.

Anyway, I want to encourage parents to teach the science of evolution EARLY in their children's lives. Take advantage of those natural science museums and children's books like "The Fossil Factory." Do the kitchen science experiments, get a telescope and astronomy books, and for God's sake (oops, HABIT!) let them dig in the dirt and watch the birds and pick berries and enjoy the natural world...instead of theme parks!

This "thinking" that Paul is so in love with is natural with children. I wish my natural abilities had never been clouded by the supernatural. I just hope I can keep my own child's mind clear so he can remain the thinker I have yet to become.

Anonymous said...

My favourite comment so far definitely has to be Fred's.  An ability to tie professional sports into a debate on evolutionary theory presents a strong argument for its veracity.

I also have to say I get a real kick out of the casually tossed about phrase:
"Its obviously true!"

For the record, I still DO believe in toasters.

Simon
http://simianfarmer.com

Anonymous said...

Hi Paul,
Thanks for posting this. I had decided to keep your e-mail to myself. I did not want to cause offence. I do agree with you. Clearly there will be no consensus between Christians and non-believers on this one. I myself do not have faith. My gut tells me that to believe something without questioning it is wrong and leads to error. We must question things and find ways to study things that reduces the risks of making erroneous conclusions. If I were to accept that God was behind everything, simply because the Bible says so I would be a fool, because the Bible is written by fallible men, men who are no more perfect than the rest of us. I don't believe in God because I have no proof that a God exists. Simply for someone to say that look around you. There must be a God because of the existence of the world and the universe. I do think that evolution is obviously true, whether there is a god behind it or not. The evidence supports it. I do think that a big bang created our solar system, just like the other cosmic events that are witnessed in outer space. But for all those out there who believe in Genesis, where is your evidence?
More in the next comment,
Kate.
http://journals.aol.co.uk/bobandkate/AnAnalysisofLife/

Anonymous said...

(Continued from previous comment)
The third issue is the creation of the universe, that is, if it was created. Who created it? Christians say, God. I say, we do not know that it was created. And even if it was we do not know what entity created it. It could simply be that the universe has always been there, that it simply is. Without further evidence I cannot say one way or another. But there is no simple faith for me - I prefer the 'let's find out approach'. I am not closed to any of the possibilities. But we need to leave human cultural preconceptions behind when we consider the big issues. We need to be open to new ideas, not rigorously bound to the past, and books, like the Bible, that were written in a specific sept of historic circumstances, cultural periods and by people with different concerns and mindsets.
Thanks again,
Kate.
http://journals.aol.co.uk/bobandkate/AnAnalysisofLife/

Anonymous said...

Paul... that's such a great email (and entry) you wrote. I am happy to discover your blog that I will place into my Links. What are you, a kind of a genius? a scientist? you sound like a lecturer and I like your tone.
Valerie
http://journals.aol.co.uk/iiimagicxx/surreality/

Anonymous said...

Does anyone want to talk about the NOTHING in the Big Bang? So far, no one is doing that....lets talk about how profound that it....

In terms of beleifs(science and religion) they both require very little sight to create some serious faithful believers...I realize its gets put on religion only, but thats not fair....I dont debate religion with people because that is pointless....it goes no where...

Paul..comments left here.......like infinity, something always existing and etc...These are terms that are like magical...how does a skeptic except those and finds the idea of a God insanity?... .I will never get that.....but see how easy it is to say them. And that is what people do..science minds just say them and never gets a good does of critical thinking..this turned into a religious convo...

I will write my article this week...and maybe someone wants to be real about it there...

Anonymous said...

I can definitely tell you're a little irritated when it comes to this entry, Paul. You get a bit off the mark yourself, in setting up an argument against Raven and what/why she believes what she has:

"She's a Christian, and the arguments she is repeating came from people who represent themselves as Christians as well. As such, they have had, from a very early age, the big ten rules of conduct hammered into their heads."

Firstly, it is poor form to lump all the 'Christians' in the world under one heading, just as it's poor form to lump physcisits and biologists into the same category (when it comes to talking about their particular past experiences and the generalizations thereby imparted on them). Fundamentalist Christians, for example, have  very different view on evolution when compared to Roman catholics. (see: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040723_communion-stewardship_en.html and http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02tc.htm for current doctrine)

Secondly, to claim that Raven, by virtue of her being Christian, has had the Ten Commandments (or big ten rules of conduct) hammered into her head from a young age and thereby is susceptible to believing other Christians is a faulty argument. Are you more likely to believe something if a skeptic says it? Not if you are truly skeptic! Religious or not, athiest or not, we all have social mores and obligations 'hammered' into our heads. The statement about the commandments has no place in your argument. Are you right in saying that others have lied when creating their arguments? Yes. Is lying a socially acceptable more? No. It doesn't matter what their faith is, or even if they have any - what matters is they lied. As a skeptic, I'd expect you to shy away from generalizations just as much as liars use them to create false arguments. ;)

Anonymous said...

Hello Raven , et. al.
  I wanted to let you know that I am not ignoring you. I have been a bit busy IRL for the last couple of days, and probably will be so until early next week. I didn't want to respond to the comments here without giving them all due consideration and thought.
  I do have things still to say on this topic and will formulate a detailed reply when I have time to sit and put it together with some care.
-Paul

Anonymous said...

I just want to echo another comment about the fallacy of dualism in this argument.  People at each extreme tend to apply a broad label to each other's camp (e.g. "Christian" or "Atheist") and ignore the fact that there are Christians all over the continuum on this subject. Many scientists are Christians, and a large percentage of non-scientist Christians also accept evolution, the Big Bang, and other well-supported science.  (There are also quite a few Christians who accept various forms of pseudoscience, the paranormal, and other ideas.)

My atheist husband says that Christians like me who believe in both Jesus and critical thinking have a responsibility to let others know that Pat Roberts et al do not represent the views of all Christians.  I hate confrontation and arguments and ill-will, but yes, from time to time I do point out this oft-forgotten fact.  I doubt you'd find anyone at my church, for example, who denies the validity of the theory of evolution.  Unfortunately, part of the culture of evangelical "fundalits" (a term Christian writer Madeleine L'Engle coined) is to shout louder than the rest of us do.  - KFB

Anonymous said...

  Karen and Charley appear (to me) to be a bit off the mark here. I am not attacking Christians here. I am attacking fallacious and mendacious arguments made by creationists, and repeated by those who have accepted what they say at face value.
  It doesn't piss me off that Raven has repeated those arguments. It pisses me off that the people who made them in the first place *purport* to be Christians, yet knowingly lie about these things. My gun is aimed straight.
-Paul

Anonymous said...

Ahh... then you admit to being a gun toting member of the NRA!!
I knew it!
You atheists are all the same!
I know a hidden agenda when I can't see it!!!!

Can't wait for your considered response.
Brent