Wednesday, September 22, 2004

Critical thinking revisited

A recent exchange on the AOL Journals message board:

Subject: A journaler who claims to be taking pictures of ghosts.

Paul: The young person in question is simply taking pictures of dust motes on his camera lens that become illuminated by the flash. An extremely common photographic artifact

Lahoma: I hope he does get a Ghost pic though.

Paul: Given the fact that ghosts are creations of our imaginations, I'd have to say it's pretty darn unlikely.

Lahoma: Wrong! That's all I got to say about that.

Paul: Proof?

Sherri: If it is her opinion, she dosen't need proof or justification, just as you don't.
Just because you don't beleive it, dosen't mean she can't believe there are.
She shouldn't have to give someone on the internet proof to have her own opinion.

An unruly mob: I agree with Sherri.

Sheila: There is really no concrete evidence that ghosts exist.  There is also no concrete evidence that they don't.  It really is left up to personal experience and how you were raised as far as religion goes, and your personal beliefs. Until such evidence is determined, you are neither right nor wrong.


::sigh::

Let's have another little discussion about scientific method, and critical thinking, shall we?

I like broccoli. That is a statement of opinion. I'm entitled to it. Your opinion on the taste of broccoli may or may not differ from mine. That is your right.

Broccoli exists. Ah! Now, that is not a statement of opinion. That is a scientific hypothesis. As such, proof is required. Don't be silly, you say. Of course broccoli exists. I've eaten it before. I'm sorry, but anecdotal evidence does not constitute proof. Why not, you ask. Think about my last journal entry. We all write "anecdotes" down in our journals. We've already agreed that some people are not entirely honest in the things they are writing. So, just because you say you've eaten broccoli before, doesn't mean you are necessarily telling the truth. More proof is required. OK smartypants, you say. Here is a piece of broccoli. What do you say to that? Excellent. You have shown me an actual piece of broccoli. We can now state uncategorically that broccoli exists. Save that piece, just in case we come across somebody else that denies the existence of broccoli.

Ghosts exist. Another hypothesis. Show me the proof. Here, look at these pictures. Let's show those pictures to a photographic expert, shall we? This is a dust mote on the lens illuminated by the flash. This is a camera strap illuminated by the flash. This is an internal reflection within a poorly coated camera lens. This one is an obviously deliberate double exposure. This one is an accidental double exposure. This one is caused by a light leak in the camera. This one is caused by defective film. And this one? Well, this one is your thumb. There is nothing here that I haven't seen a thousand time before, and isn't easily explainable. Next? Look, this electromagnetic device registers a disturbance in the area. Look, it also registers a disturbance in my kitchen, in my neighbour's back yard, in the school parking lot, in the grocery store, in your elbow. Everywhere. But, I've seen a ghost in my house. Let's go to your house, and you can show me... Seventeen ghost free days later: The ghost doesn't like you, or, the prescence of scientific examination causes the ghosts to disappear. (Don't laugh, people have actually claimed that) I'm sorry, but no truly scientifically honest study ever done has turned up a single shred of evidence to support the possibility that ghosts exist.

You can't prove that ghosts don't exist. I don't have to. I have to prove that they do exist. I can't prove that broccoli doesn't exist, because you can prove that broccoli exists. That's how scientific method works. You start with an hypothesis, and you try to disprove it. There is no other way to do it. According to scientific method, the hypothesis is: ghosts don't exist. We must attempt to prove that ghosts do exist. Even though we believe that they don't, we must do our best to prove that they do. And I will repeat: no truly scientifically honest study ever done (and there have been many, many of them) has turned up a single shred of evidence to support the possibility that ghosts exist.

I don't care. I still believe that ghosts exist: Well, that's different. That makes you superstitious, and there's nothing I can do about that.

 

edit: you can replace the word Ghost with Astrology, Dowsing, Tarot Cards, Psychics, Reflexology, Feng Shui, or the Bedini Ultra CD Clarifier in this article and it would read the same.

 

For more on critical thinking, read this older entry.

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

Am I part of the unruly mob? If so, a life-long dream has been achieved today ;)
I'll admit to being superstitious:) Just curious: what's your stance on "God"? And just to play devil's advocate, is it possible that we just don't have the technology yet to detect the supernatural?
I hope you don't perceive my questioning as angry or aggressive. I totally respect your thoughts & your writing abilities, and these are just some thoughts that popped into my mind. I'm always interested in hearing other people's views on things.

Anonymous said...

"OK smartypants, you say. Here is a piece of broccoli. What do you say to that?"
i can understand the reasoning but what if it wasn't REALLY broccoli .. seriously !! if you didn't believe it existed, you wouldn't recognize it if it were stapled to your forehead so how do they prove its broccoli instead of say a horseshoe or a banana or a ghost even?
now i'm confusing myself lol
pamela

Anonymous said...

Well, it didn't take long for someone else to come under the gun. Proving something doesn't exist as you rightly point out is not part of the scientific method. A friend of mine years ago had some odd substances appear in her apartment, that resembled the so-called ghostly ectoplasm left by ghosts. Chemists did every test they could on it and never did figure out what it was or where it came from, but after a few months, it vanished. Proof of a ghost? No. Simply something unidentifiable. In the case of the photos and every other such photo or study, there have been alternate explanations that proved correct.

As for the broccoli, well, it's broccoli because that bushy green stalk has been named broccoli. The irrefutable evidence will come not because one person agrees it's broccoli, but when independent researchers, who have no personal agenda or stake in the outcome, will study it and declare it broccoli by whatever method is available, possibly even its DNA.

Getting people to even agree on what a ghost is and what would be irrefutable proof is a lot harder than finding folks to agree on what broccoli is.

And how much different would the discussion have been if Lahoma had said, "I disagree. I believe in ghosts," instead of "Wrong"? Belief in something vs a statement that doesn't indicate it's not trying to be factual.

Anonymous said...

LOL Paul, you need a kit kat break dude.

Oh, I believe in God too. :wink:

Lahoma

Anonymous said...

Part of the unruly mob checking in.. (I always wanted to be part of a mob, is this it?) LOL

I believe in Ghosts... Proof? Not necessarily... however.. lack of proof is what gives me the inclination to title them as Ghosts. Some things I have seen have been unexplainable and while they "may" be able to be explained...no one has ever done so..

I label them as ghosts until someone else comes up with a plausible explaination.

I do believe some of the things we think are "unexplainable" can be exlained.. however... there are a few things I will always wonder about.

I just happen to title those as Ghosts for the time being.

PS. As for the God reference from the board... I'm Agnostic so would be curious to read your thoughts about him or the lack thereof.

Anonymous said...

I read this thread in the message board.  Your "lecure" begs me to ask, what about God?  What about faith?

Anonymous said...

I have never seen proof that ghosts exist.  But I want to believe in them.  Why?  Because its exciting to believe in them.  Kind of like how I buy lotto tickets in the hopes that some day I actually win something.  People say they see or communicate with ghosts all the time.  People win lotteries all the time.  It won't ever be the same until it happens to me.  Until then I'll just go on in happy, blissful ignorance and who knows maybe one day a ghost will give me the numbers that will win the lottery!

Anonymous said...

I DID NOT USED TO BELIEVE IN GHOSTS EITHER UNTIL I TOOK A PICTURE OF MY MOTHER A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AND WHEN WE DEVELOPED IT MY GRANDFATHER WAS RIGHT IN BACK OF HER CLEAR AS DAY (HE DIED 10 YEARS EARLIER) NOW EXPLAIN THAT ONE!!!

Anonymous said...

alphawoman1 wrote:
Your "lecure" begs me to ask, what about God?  What about faith?

OK. You can slip God in there right after Tarot Cards, if you like.
;)
-Paul

Anonymous said...

come on, you're really an android, aincha.
 
however - if according to superstring theory - we do in fact, live in a multidimensional (10 or more) universe then you must recognize, at least, the possibility that apparitions are visitors from another space/time continuum.

just a thought.

Anonymous said...

Wow!
When I created my ghost hunting journal, I never thought that it would stir up this kind of mess. I guess you can put ghost up there with religion and politics. And no need to worry, I don't have any ghost pics of priest or politicians.

Jon Jon

Anonymous said...

orbguy222 wrote:
And no need to worry, I don't have any ghost pics of priest or politicians.


Well, that would be true : )
-Paul

Anonymous said...

Oh my goodness Paul...you raised quite a stir! And the photo's in question weren't even good! You seem to have an analytical or scientific mind...your thoughts are well put. However, given human nature a good majority of us are going to believe in the supernatural.  I'm still waiting for Hoodini to give us a sign...hasn't happened yet.......Sandi

Anonymous said...

I'd like to sound a note of caution about overreliance on the scientific method. It is this: results are only as good as the tests used, and to some extent the models being tested. At one time, scientists thought they had pretty good evidence for the existence of ether, in the old meaning of that word. But "ether" didn't suddenly disappear as science progressed; it was simply never there as defined. Certain people were innocent of crimes of which they were convicted, long before it became possible for DNA evidence to overturn those convictions. And light has not changed its nature, even as scientists have refined their theories about waves and particles and some new model with properties of both.

So the absence of proof that something exists is not a definitive reason to disbelieve it. I'll grant you that there is very little scientifically credible evidence in favor of ghosts, flying saucers, ESP and BVM sightings, and that their existence seems exceedingly unlikely. But the possibility remains that something is real but still unproven, or seemingly proven but not real, due to limitations of the tests themselves. I don't really buy the concept of Shroedinger's Cat, but it is theoretically possible that a rigorous scientific test could interfere with and distort the result - even if it's administed by James Randi.

But no, I don't believe in ghosts. I just acknowledge the tiny possibility that people who do believe in them could be right after all.

Karen

Anonymous said...

Well I totally agree with the concept that ghosts don't like you.  But, I think ghosts are fun, and I would give good money to see one.  I have heard them, and felt them, but never actually saw one.  I bet the government  has one, in area 51.
lol

Anonymous said...

Has anyone ever seen that programme on Living TV- 'Most Haunted?' You have to have an incredible amount of trust to believe them when they say the spiritualist medium hasn't had any prior knowledge about the locations, and it seems almost unbelievable when he has thoughts about peoples names and lives suddenly in his head!

I find it a comforting thought to think that after death there's something else. You might say "it's scientifically impossible! It wouldn't make sense!" But isn't the fact we're here on earth scientifically impossible!? What are the chances that from the Big Bang, the EXACT amount of water and the EXACT amount of land was made to support life, and we're EXACTLY the right distance away from the sun to exist, so on that basis, isn't anything possible?

I totally believe in ghosts, in my opinion there is sufficient evidence to suggest they exist. It's so difficult to give any alternative explanation about things flying around rooms by themselves, switching themselves on, orbs of light curving in a spiral around a room, footsteps when there's no-one around, children telling parents they've been 'talking to grandma' in their bedroom even when she's been dead 5 years, and we've all seen that footage of a tudor-type dressed individual closing some fire doors at Hampton Court. The staff swear they were the only ones in the building... isn't it possible they could be telling the truth?

It's a very controversial subject! And I can completely understand the reasons for not believing in ghosts. But we're in the 21st century... isn't it about time to look outside the box?

Anonymous said...

I don't know... the fact that two nouns are used - ghost and broccoli - does distract me from what really is under the test. I guess it is something like concrete VS abstract. Well, there is no way I can show love to my best mate... it is an experience.
Valerie