Okay, I'm TRYING to inspire you with this question.I will answer this one, Brent. It's a good question.
If God could grant you any wish...
Oh wait, you don't believe in him/her do you?
Okay, if I could grant you any wish (after all, you know I exist, although often you might wish to deny it), what information or understanding would you wish to instill in all mankind?
In other words, if there was 1 concept or inate understanding which you could have all humans suddenly get, what would it be?
I know how I would answer this question and am very interested in what you would respond with.
NOW.
I also recognise that my being a very poor writer, your first answer might be...
HUH?
or being Canadian, I guess that should be "eh?"
Email me if you need clarification... or if you feel it's a stupid question. Be prepared to explain why!!
Brent
Comment from bpslider45 - 07/08/06 11:47 PM
If I could somehow arrange for a specific knowledge or understanding to instantly become instilled in all of mankind it would be the capability for everyone to engage in critical thinking in all aspects of our lives.
Of course, that is not enough. I firmly believe that there are very few people in this world who are truly stupid. Most people are capable of learning to exercise critical thinking. Many are simply not interested. In fact, there are many people who choose to be willfully ignorant of easily obtainable evidence in order to continue to engage in their beliefs.
It's a nice dream, but I know it will never happen. Oh well.
tags: Skepticism
24 comments:
"Critical thinking" OK...here is my question that I pose to logic driven people, which I am ALSO..but I hear Gods voice, so that makes me a looney,,,,or someone will grand imaginations,lol,,,,
Heres the deal- Critical thinking is limited....If I could ask a question to God I would ask, " Help man understand that he cant understand much." We can't define the beginning of life without faith and submitting to our ignorance....I wrote about this many times on my blog...but to attempt to imagine the beginning of life as a scientist, evolutionist, big bang,,,etc...they cant explain how Matter appeared in space out of no where...They cant explain how the first molecules just appeared out of nowhere, that supposedly over billions of years created life,,,The religous person who is defined by critical thinkers as a robot molded by society, well even they cant explain how God came to be
So since we will never understand the "Starting point" before the beginning whether your a critical thinker/scientiest or a supposedly NOT critical thinker with religious bias,,I say, lets be real about something. All points of view about how life can start from nothing, requires a miracle. An explanation outside the bounds of critical thinking that is supposed to offer a logical conclusion. Critical thinking is a great tool to manage our sanity but faith is rooted in every critical theory out there. We're thus limited. Wisdom agrees.
Excellent answer Paul. Perhaps if we were all "critical thinkers" this stupid war would stop (or never have started, actually) Wait! I forgot you're in Canada so you probably don't care. In any event, I doubt critical thinking would be a cure for greed. If I'm wrong - I stand corrected.
Dianna
Raven,
Your faith limits your reasoning ability. I agree with you that we do not know how the universe came about. We do not know how life first arose on our planet. It is very possible that we will never truly *know* these things. However, that lack of knowledge does not automatically mean that a miracle must have been involved. It is possible for there to be a perfectly reasonable explanation that we will never find.
When you begin with a presupposition, your reasoning will always lead you back to it, no matter what. I am comfortable saying, "I do not know." Many people are not, and so they make up stories to explain the things they cannot otherwise understand.
-Paul
Oh, Dianna, I definitely care. Although Canada chose not to join the US in a war that was *not* about terrorism, our soldiers stand shoulder to shoulder with yours in Afghanistan.
-Paul
Paul, I hope that by saying Raven's faith limit's her reasoning ability you're not implying that faith inherently limits reasoning ability. I cannot argue that it CAN and certainly DOES (more frequently than is good for my own peace of mind) -- but I also think that the two can coexist in a mutually exclusive state in the same person. One does not preclude the other.
Simon
Simon,
Your point is taken. However, while a faith in God need not severely limit one's reasoning ability, any form of presupposition is virtually crippling to the process of critical thinking. Any form of belief based upon faith (the specific meaning of which is belief despite a lack of evidence) is tied to a person's emotions, and as such, said person becomes strongly motivated to defend that belief, which, by definition, is indefensible.
-Paul
Paul, I'd have to turn down such a proferring, being human and having emotions, hence continually burdened with preconceptions. Listen, my brain actually considers itself, do I need further understanding? It's all moot to me. Also, I'd say the current paleo-archeological proofs of how multi-cellular carbon structures first appeared on earth is correct. Thanks for such an interesting question! Cathy http://journals.aol.com/luddie343/DARETOTHINK/
I'm afraid I have to side with Simon here Paul.
My ability to look at things critically is not hampered by the faith I hold, because my faith is based on my observations of science.
There are certain things which to my mind are far to complex to be explained away by chance and I feel there had to be a controlling hand in their creation.
This in no way prevents me from looking at new info analytically and re-appraising my position as I go because I have no religious investments which require me to hold to a certain "gospel" as it were.
If I was to answer my own question, my wish would be that humankind had the ability to communicate / understand each other with clarity.
In other words, no matter what point I was trying to make, you could understand not only what I was saying but the reasoning behind it as well.
This would not only resolve many battles before they start but also allow for clearer debates. If you know clearly what someone's reasoning is, you are much closer to being able to explain to them any flaws in their thinking.
It's also much harder to kill someone if you truly know their mind.
As you said, nice dream EH?
Brent
Paul you presume faith is lacking. Are you saying there is no such thing as a religious person who isnt a critical thinker? Then only those who dont beleive in God are? How so? How is that a continual of logic? You presume a piece of historical evidence(bible), as not truth because you weren't there. You discount it because you didn't see it but the only way for you to can accept it is by seeing. SO, that critical thinking leads you to disbelieve most historical pieces of literatiture. Finally, You cant apply critical thinking to the Start of life. Its IMPOSSIBLE! ITS impossible to explain density, heat, molecules and matter existing without nothing existing before. THAT IS FAITH> ITS a lack of evidence. ITS NOT PROVABLE no matter your beliefs. I don't choose religion without critical thinking, otherwise I would believe gravity gives me the same personality disposition as anyone else born on that day...there are plenty of beliefs that are absurd but there is also plenty that have a good argument. Paul, you assume a religious person is brainwashed.....how much critical thinking is that? By your same logic, isn't the atheist? If brainwashed means someone else have an impact on our thoughts, than you, me and everyone is guilty. If we can think outside of our teachings, than that is critical thinking...even if it means we finally take a stand on what we finally believe.
Raven,
You are putting words in my mouth. Read my response to Simon's comment. It is all I have to say on the matter. It is possible for a person to think critically about *almost* everything in their life, yet still accept some things without question.
-Paul
Brent and Simon,
If I understand your beliefs ( and I think I do) you fall into the category of people who believe that God *is* without feeling the need to search for evidence that God *does*. As such, you are able to look at the world dispassionately without having to necessarily include God in any and every explanation of the natural world. I suspect the majority of North Americans who believe fall into this category (Dawn, you probably do too). To state it another way, you understand the difference between believing and knowing. You are content to say, "I do not *know* that there is a God, but I believe there is."
I sit just on the other side of the fence from you. While I do not believe that there is a God, I can be honest and say that I do not know there is not.
Raven, on the other hand, wants to claim that she knows. It is this presuppositionalism that cripples her critical thinking ability.
-Paul
It's worth nothing that, whatever you think of Paul's post or other arguments, he is *not* saying that all atheists are critical thinkers and religious people aren't at all (hope ya don't mind me speaking for you).
Let's assume for sake of argument that there is no god and Paul is right that saying you know there is cripples your critical thinking. Even *if* this is so, *one* thing doesn't make or not make a person a critical thinker. A person who runs away from one fight isn't automatically a coward. A person who tells one small untruth isn't automatically a liar. Character traits are generally a long-term, big picture thing.
EVERYONE, atheist or believer, no doubt has some area or aspect of their lives where bias or flawed belief affects them. I'm sure Paul would freely admit that he isn't a 100% critical thinker himself. No one is. (though it is a goal I also believe worth striving for...there'd be fewer wars, con-artists, and people that talk at the theatre IMO.)
I know one person who is generally a strong critical thinker, but every hockey playoff season insists on sitting in one particular chair because it is apparently that act which will guarantee his team's victory (this person is a Maple Leaf fan, by the way, which shows you how well examined *that* particular belief is ;)
<<<Brent and Simon,
If I understand your beliefs ( and I think I do) you fall into the category of people who believe that God *is* without feeling the need to search for evidence that God *does*. As such, you are able to look at the world dispassionately without having to necessarily include God in any and every explanation of the natural world. I suspect the majority of North Americans who believe fall into this category (Dawn, you probably do too). To state it another way, you understand the difference between believing and knowing. You are content to say, "I do not *know* that there is a God, but I believe there is."
I sit just on the other side of the fence from you. While I do not believe that there is a God, I can be honest and say that I do not know there is not.
Raven, on the other hand, wants to claim that she knows. It is this presuppositionalism that cripples her critical thinking ability.
-Paul
Comment from plittle - 12/08/06 9:26 AM>>>
Ahh Paul, you knew I would get here sooner or later! LOL You are right, I don't know but believe there is something 'God'. And, I am not afraid to say I don't know, in fact, there is so much we don't know about so many things.
be well,
Dawn
Hi Paul,
This is the only part of your response that I take issue with.
"If I understand your beliefs ( and I think I do) you fall into the category of people who believe that God *is* without feeling the need to search for evidence that God *does*."
I was introduced to religion as most people were. I was taken to church, read to from the bible and told the who, what and where of that particular belief.
Problem was I found too many things in that "gospel" which made no sense.
One example would be the "Adam & Eve" tale which meant that one set of parents produced all humans we see today. Without even understanding the concepts of genetics yet, I could see from a very early age that this had to be a fable at best.
This was one of many issues which would make me very uncomfortable entrusting my "soul" as it were to this faith.
I then pursued exploring other faiths only to find the same kinds of irreconcilable issues which I had been avoiding previously.
Pretty much left me adrift for a while.
Cont'd next post (sorry)
Brent
Cont'd from prev. post
Then I studied genetics in university and between that study and other related courses, came to see the complexities of how the human body functions.
From this, and I feel this IS critical thinking, I came to believe that there had to be a controlling force, a creator as it were.
Now this "God" would certainly not be what most religious people believe in because I don't see God as having anything, in the way of involvement in the small aspects of life.
God did not make my hair turn grey. Genetics did.
I just happen to believe God designed and caused that which we call genetics to "be".
Over time. Not in seven days. We call it evolution.
As you might say that is faith, but I could say the same of your belief that it happened by accident. I'm still open to my belief being disproven as are you.
Unless science makes some huge breakthrough, or you get to speak to God, I have a funny feeling we will be discussing this and agreeing to disagree until we're doing the "ashes to ashes" stuff.
Hey at that point, maybe one of us will find the true answer. Or not.
My apologies again for the long windedness.
Brent
Isn't that what I just said?
-Paul
Okay smarty, I'll narrow it down.
"who believe that God *is* without feeling the need to search for evidence that God *does*."
I do feel the need to search for evidence (hence my previous long winded post).
I feel that I have encountered scientific information that leads me to my hypothesis.
I do not believe because someone wrote a book, said it was from God and tells me I must believe, but because of my observations in the scientific world.
Now you may disagree with my interpretation and my hypothesis (notice I am refraining from calling it a theory to keep the fundy's at bay - no pun intended for you coasters) but until it can be proven to be false, it is still a valid hypothesis.
Many, many scientific theories start out this way until they are either disproven or accepted as an established theory. The name Einstein comes to mind as a scientist who put forth hypotheses which were doubted until later scientific advancement was able to test them and establish their validity. (No I'm not claiming to be an Einstein, although his ability to write was probably as readable as mine).
Hope that clarifies my issue with your previous post (small as it was).
Brent
"I sit just on the other side of the fence from you. While I do not believe that there is a God, I can be honest and say that I do not know there is not."
I think we're both sitting on the same fence here Paul but I'm always being bitch slapped by Christians for my refusal to indulge in blind faith and bitch slapped by atheists for not making that "final commitment" and crossing the border in stating "I "know" there is not a god."
Yet, being raised as a Traditional Roman Catholic, I can attest to the fact that I was "NOT" provided with doctrine; I was "indoctrinated."
I believe I may be one of those critical thinkers or the stupidest person who ever walked the face of the earth. I always used to ask the wrong questions. For example, how can there be three gods in one but only one god? That's polytheism but they fiercely deny it. If Jesus is god then who was he talking to while praying on the Sermon of The Mount? Himself? He says; "Our Father, who art in Heaven." Why didn't anyone ever explain the "Trinity" to me? Why didn't they even mention it on Trinity Sunday?
They call it a mystery and it sure as hell is from their point of view. Later, I found that much of Christendom was infused with paganism and the trinity doctrine was actually enforced by Constantine, supposedly a hero to Christendom, yet a man who later murdered members of his own family. Other religions have triads of gods as well but they are considered polytheistic by the church. (?)
That is only "ONE" of the doctrines I questioned but no one called me a critical thinker.
They called me a heretic.
Dianna
Reminded here that Einstein was quoted to have been an atheist but also stated, "The universe is in harmony. God didn't play dice with the universe."
Dianna < < -- confused as hell - gotta research that.
Okay, found out what I wanted as well as a cool site. Obviously, I was misinformed.
Einstein always said that he was a deeply religious man, and his religion informed his science. He rejected the conventional image of God as a personal being, concerned about our individual lives, judging us when we die, intervening in the laws he himself had created to cause miracles, answer prayers and so on. Einstein did not believe in a soul separate from the body, nor in an afterlife of any kind.
But he was certainly a pantheist. He did regard the ordered cosmos with the same kind of feeling that believers have for their God. To some extent this was a simple awe at the impenetrable mystery of sheer being. Einstein also had an urge to lose individuality and to experience the universe as a whole.
http://members.aol.com/heraklit1/einstein.htm
Cool, thanks Dianna
I'm closer to Einstein than I thought.
Now if I could just come up with some scientific theory to astound the world and make me rich...
HA... take that Paul!
Brent
Is this what I am? I'd never considered it before. I've always have spiritual feelings whenever I see a sunset, a full moon or anything beautifully displayed by nature. In fact, Dawn and I spoke about that once; a feeling; not religious but spiritual. Well, now I'm more confused than ever. Ya gotta check out this link Paul.
Dianna
http://members.aol.com/heraklit1/einstein.htm
I believe in God; you know I do from previous comments/emails. If the Lord could grant me any wish - my wish would be to know Him better. I love my life and my family et al but there is more in the next life (eternity with him). I would just wish others could see that and understand it and come to accept it.
betty
Nope - Finished reading about all this and not a Pantheist here. This is just another organized religion I don't need to belong to.
Dianna
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