I've seen the opinion expressed several places recently that when a baby dies, it goes straight to heaven, having not had the opportunity to sin. One person even opined that killing your child immediately after birth was the one sure way to guarantee their entrance to the sweet hereafter.
Please pardon this poor dumb atheist for questioning the ideal, but that wasn't the way I learned it way back when in Sunday school. In my understanding of Christian dogma we are born tainted by Adam and Eve's original sin, so do not rate a place in heaven until we are either baptised, or old enough to choose Christ as a personal saviour (depending on which religious sect you listen to).
Dead babies don't go to heaven. Comments?
tags:Skepticism, Religion
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18 comments:
There has been considerable theological discussion in this area. Assuming you're not just playing provacateur, Google "limbo." This concept was specifically designed for that situation, but has since fallen out of favor. And of course, belief in Jesus is not monolithic. I'm sure there must be a variety of teachings and/or private conclusions on this particular subject.
But for what it's worth, I was baptized by a Catholic nurse when I was born in an emergency baptism, in case I died (as seemed likely) without benefit of the formal sacrament. I gather that was supposed to do in a pinch. I didn't get it done by a priest untul I was six years old.
And to answer your subject line, you could do i if you tried, but I really don't think it's something to aspire to.
Karen
http://outmavarin.blogspot.com
I think Karen really hit the nail on the head.
You're interpretation Paul would be the standard in various times and places (past and present), but it is not something that has gone unchallenged. Karen mentioned limbo as one example. Also, consider the Puritanism view of predestination, where they believed that God has already chosen at the beginning of time who will be damned and who will be saved, rather than it somehow being up to the individual. In their view, all a person can do is try to figure out which category they are in, and so presumably whether a baby goes to heaven or not depends on what God decided at the beginning of time.
One of my personal favourite ways that people have ensured dead loved ones will reach heaven was to purchase indulgences from the church on the dead person's behalf that would forigive them their sins--even after they had died! (I can't help but picture Satan shaking his fist in frustration as yet another soul is suddenly spirited away [pun oh so intended]). I don't know if this was ever used for babies, but I suppose it's possible.
Anyway, so much Church doctrine has changed in so many ways, why not let people change this one too. At least it will make them feel better! And hey, if Kevin's Smith's view of things in Dogma is correct, if enough people believe it is true then it is true!
Sorry for the double post, but I actually just looked around a fair bit to see if I could find the "official" view currently held by the church. As best as I can tell, there isn't one at the moment.
The best (brief) article I could find on the issue was the following:
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060205/NEWS02/602050325/1017
It basically states that Limbo "satisfied few, especially mothers who had miscarriages and stillbirths. A Vatican commission is now trying to find a theological formula that would allow unbaptized babies to get to heaven."
Now, i'm not sure whether it was the catholic church or other protestant churches that recently annouced this. but the previous belief was that if a baby died before having been baptised, they went to limbo. not heaven, but certainly not hell because they didn't do anything but be born. limbo, whilst not heaven, is still a nice place and they wouldn't suffer any.
however this was recently changed and the church (not sure if its C or P or both) announced that they went to heaven. Don't ask me how a bunch of men can sit around and make up what happens, when really its supposed to be God who decides.
Ultimately, I think that babies would go right to heaven. I don't think that we should kill our children to ensure they go there. Its a little crazy. But I suppose if you think of it, there is a kinda of insane criminal logic behind it. Since the Kingdom of God is where we all want to end up, make sure your kids dont sin so they can go there. but if you kill them, you wont get there. ugh! crazy person who said that! lol! confused me plenty.
But I think, God accepts all babies because they're as innocent as you can get. I know Adam sinned, but Jesus died to wipe away our sins. So even though as decendants of Adam we're born sinners, Jesus died to show us the way to the KOG. And he said something about letting the children come to him. So I dont think there's anyway a baby isn't getting into heaven.
I wonder if you went into a restuarant in heaven there'd be a screaming baby ruining your meal?
Thanks for giving me something my brain could hurt over for a little. hopefully this comment makes some sense! lol!
Shermeen xx
As I recall things, and I did go to catholic school for 7 years, we are all born with Original Sin on our souls. You know, because Eve ate the forbidden fruit and got her's and Adams butts kicked out of the Garden of Eden, am I remembering correctly? So, babies have to be baptised to rid them of that sin. I do think that the Catholic Church did away with Limbo though, the place where unbaptised babies go if they die. (Limbo was like a holding area, til the end of the world?) This is the way I see the baptism thing, since I had one of my children baptised and not the other...one will die having been given more U.S. Saving Bonds then the other.
I'll add some confusion to this: My husband was asked to be a godfather for a friends child. He was not allowed to do it because I was married before. NOT HIM, ME. The priest said that our marriage was not recognised by the church (we weren't married in a church). Here's the clincher...I told the priest that I wasn't married in the church the 1st time either, yet he told me I had to have my 1st marriage annulled. Well ,if they wanted my 1st marriage annulled, they must recognize that one ...NO? Then I really blew the priests mind when I told him my 1st husband had been married before(in a church ) and did not get an annulment before marrying me...the priest said "I'll have to look this one up." and went to get a book.
A priest had told my 1st husband that he would go to hell for even dating me, let alone marrying me without the annulment from his 1st wife. I'm not sure if I'm going to hell with all this.
Strange that my husband could not be a godfather yet, we could have our son baptised. I mean basically they called my kid a bastard in so many words ,no?
That's why I never had my daughter baptised. And the bonds will be split 50/50.
An even dumber agnostic here, I was raised in the Traditional Catholic faith but have abandoned most of the dogmas. I've found, from researching the scriptures, that God can read the heart condition of a child before it is born; examples are David and Jeremiah. (Scriptures provided upon request.)
Why is Christ called the "Savior" anyway? Well, the scriptures tell us that he *died* for our sins; those sins being the ones committed by Adam & Eve. Therefore, it doesn't take an ordained minister to use a little common sense. If "He" died for those sins then why would an innocent baby go to a holding area? Or be denied heavenly entrance?
Limbo and Purgatory have been largely abandoned by most Catholic churches because there is no mention of these places in either the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures.
(Acts 24:15), ‘There's going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.’ (Paul speaking here) My honest question is; what good is a resurrection if baptized babies go to heaven anyway?
So, I'm even dumber than you are because that's what I'd like to know. And I'm not trying to be offensive ~ I'm simply being honest:(
Dianna
If I, as an infant, require for some berobed priest to pour oil and/or water over my head while spouting benedictions as the only true way to get to Heaven... well that just seems sort of silly, now doesn't it?
I had to laugh at Alec's contribution that the church is now looking for a theological formula to allow unbaptized babies to go to Heaven. A theological formula? Mixing religion and science? Further evidence that organized religion, in the grandest sense, is little more than a human construct made to fit the whims of Man.
This coming, by the way, from a fella (me) who does firmly believe in a Higher Power. I just don't have as much hubris to think that I can define what that is.
Simon
http://simianfarmer.com
And by the way, you could have been much more offensive than that. I mean, if dead babies don't go to heaven, why waste them? They're delightful done medium-well and served with some fava beans and a nice chianti.
Simon
htttp://simianfarmer.com
(I believe, by the way, that I have now assured my own place in limbo, if not straight south to roast in the coals.)
Yes, you are right - supposedy the non-baptised go to purgatory according to Roman Catholic dogma. I don't buy that crap.... and I am not an atheist.
be well,
Dawn
ps... just needed to stir the pot today... bored??? lol
Hey, Paul .... Don't you find it interesting, what things people decide to dwell on, as far as religious beliefs ? Do they think that God, IF He exists, is just sitting up there, waiting to pass judgement on us for every little detail, and rooting through the list of people who have been baptized or not ? If they do believe in Him, don't they think He has bigger concerns than banning unbaptized babies from entering the Pearly Gates? Yes, I am a believer. But I believe in a loving, accepting, Fatherly God ...not some judgemental Being who is just waiting for technicalites to arise, so that He can wield his authority and exert His power to crush us. What kind of God is that ?
Call me a rebel, but I also believe in a hereafter for all God's children, 'ALL' meaning, believers and nonbelievers, alike. Because I suppose I also can't see a God who has given each of us individual abilities and methods of thinking and reasoning, to then punish us because we haven't all come to the same conclusions. I suppose I am gonna raise the ire of some folks out there, but there you have it !! lol . Thanks, Paul, for raising an interesting question ... Tina
Pardon me, my faith is showing in this one. Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, unless you repent and change and become like little children, trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving, you can never enter the kingdom of heaven at all. Whoever will humble himself therefore and become like this little child is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." It is my belief that children are innocent, and therefore "saved". They have no preconceived ideas, and are open to belief, and more importantly, faith. To me, the New Testament is a revision of the Old Testament. I guess you could say my faith is like that of child. I believe because I believe.
Everybody get your rocks to throw at me. But - looking at religions from the outside, this is what I see. What better way to get people to sign on the dotted line and join that man-made organized religion than to tell the nervous parents that their children were born with original sin and if their particular religion does not baptize or christen them, the little babies will go to hell when they die. If this is true, my daughter might as well murder, terrorize, steal, and everything else, because since I didn't take her to some priest and have him say magic words and throw water at her, she is going to hell. All my time spent teaching her good values and beliefs were wasted.
Just another opinion. I taught her to be responsible for herself, to answer to herself at the end of the day, and to choose her own belief system that works for her. I am not suggesting that anyone should change their beliefs to follow mine. It's all an individual choice.
This is why I separate "the church" from "God"! Ugh! I have major issues with "the church". You know at one time women had to wear something on their head in church...now...at one time priest could marry...now....just nonsense! What does that mean it was not right then? While I know there are good priest with good hearts I just find the church so hypocritical. Love your neighbor as your self but bomb abortion clinics...be mean...tell homosexuals they are not wanted or loved. It is all a powertrip! God is not suppose to be about fear but LOVE! Why would a God create a spirit and then not take it back into its arms. So I have a child & as I bring it home from the hospital it dies in a car accident & it doesn't go to heaven. Who the heck would do that? Not my God! I mean heck he knows the life story of this spirit ahead of time. He created it. And if someone doesn't understand what God is about...who created that person's brain to understand?
So why do these situations occur in the first place? People being mean etc...perhaps to test us on our Compassion & Love. That is my thought. I remember seeing the last episodes of Touch By An Angel. (Links Below) The town has lost all their children the year prior to a boiler explosion in the school & they think it is particular man & they are on a witchhunt for his head. Turns out he was in the school but a developmentally challenge boy turned the boiler up to warm some kittens he had found. As Monica states she will stay with the man they are accusing she later finds out he is really GOD! Very interesting to remember God or an angel etc could be anyone of us...and quite frankly is in all of us in some way...in his image right!
http://www.touched.com/episodeguide/seasonnine/921.html
http://www.touched.com/episodeguide/seasonnine/922.html
I'll give another example...
I had a past student who has her Masters now come speak to my classes about working with child sexual offenders. These are children doing this. Now it is hard to think they are "horrible" but what is making them do this? What has their life been like? We also think soooo nasty of Adult who offend and yes they did a horrible thing & should be punished but we forget they most likely where children at one time who were offended against (not always but more likely) who NEVER got help! And whose fault is that. So my point is...yes stop them & punish but we also but to me (my opinion) God really watching to see IF we can have the compassion he has. We practice this throughout our life. Some times we are better at this than others...including me!
that is what I learned/thought so too. In fact I've recently heard from a friend who'll have her child not baptized but she called it..oh shoot I forgot what she called it..something about just getting the child "acknowledged" since she doesn't need to be baptised because she told me repeatedly that her child is automatically born sinless. "uhuh.." all I went to say, not really agreeing..I finally told her, "well...I'll have my child baptize anytime, anywhere, in any church but my husband is devoted Catholic and I'm NOT going to argue with that.."
She shut up.
Gem :-)
Church dogma often interferes with following Christ. Is there any biblical support for the limbo destination? A holding place? Not that I've ever read or heard. Jesus is available right now as we live and breathe... why would anyone want to believe in a holding place? God's sense of time and ours are not the same. We are with God now, we are with him when we die. One of the commenters below touched on a point that makes sense: we were born with original sin, and Jesus died for that sin, which means those that believe on him and accept his death as a payment for that sin, well, that sin is forgiven...washed away. If we believe in that we should be praising and thanking the Lord for doing that for us. My God will take all people, forgives all people, and certainly, any little baby who dies before he can make a choice on his own to follow the God that saved him in the first place. Babies go to heaven, resting in the arms of their Father, our Father. Jesus said several times that we must come to him like little children... certainly a baby is far closer to the innocence and purity of the angels in heaven than any adult could be. Jesus forgave the soldiers who beat him and the ones who nailed him to the cross, the ones who spat upon him... he said "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." God understands that we don't know what we are doing. Maybe that's why we are always trying to understand God... we can't imagine making that kind of sacrifice for even the meanest person alive. That's why, I believe, we need Jesus to show us how to do it. Yes, Paul, God takes his youngest children into his arms as readily as he would take the atheist, who on his death bed breathes, "Father, forgive me. I didn't know. I didn't understand." He knows our hearts. Even when we can't speak for ourselves, he knows what's on our hearts.
wow Paul! What a use of lingo!
shhhh... Christ loved all innocents; especially babies! Of course they go to a nice place! (or something)
He said that those who approach him with a child's openness will understand him and will enter heaven
nat
wow Paul! What a use of lingo!
shhhh... Christ loved all innocents; especially babies! Of course they go to a nice place! (or something)
He said that those who approach him with a child's openness will understand him and will enter heaven
nat
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