God takes his youngest children into his arms as readily as he would take the atheist, who on his death bed breathes, "Father, forgive me. I didn't know. I didn't understand."This comment illuminates one of my biggest beefs with the Christian ideal. The concept that we can be as bad as we want all our lives, and at the end, all we have to do is say, "I'm sorry," and it'll all be OK. Conversely, we can be as good as we can, all our lives, but if we don't say the magic words just right, we're screwed.
No, I'm serious. I could spend my life stealing from my boss, cheating on my wife, lying to my kids, disrespecting my parents, spitting on the poor, swearing at God, kicking dogs. Hell, I could kill a guy. I could worship Satan. I could work on the Sabbath, eat leavened bread, fail to sacrifice the firstlings of the herd. I could be a real bad guy.
And I could, on my death bed, mere seconds before I breathed my last, say, "I'm sorry, God." Christians tell me I would go to heaven. I would leave behind a trail of damaged and despairing people, trying to face a life that I had ruined for them. The wife of the man I killed, trying to go on for her children. The husband of the woman I screwed, faith in life torn from him in an instant. My ex-boss, standing amidst the ashes of his failed business due to my embezzlement. I'd be up there, in the presence of God, all angels and harps, and they'd still be down here, broken. And that's justice?
On the other hand, I could be a real good guy. I could honour my mother and father, love and respect my wife. I could give all that I have to charities, both money and time volunteering. I could believe in God, one God above all others. I could be happy in all that I have, and never desire to have more, even though my neighbours did. I could spend my life without ever telling a lie, or making a false accusation against anyone. All these things I could do, and yet, according to Christians, I would not be entitled to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I would spend eternity burning on a lake of fire, simply because I didn't say the right words. And that's justice.
tags:Skepticism, Religion
14 comments:
No, that's religion. A man-made construct devoted, ostensibly, to the worship of God. It's a bit of a sticky wicket when divine doctrine is put into practice by humans. Bound to lose something in translation.
I totally lost my train of thought now, looking back at my 'sticky wicket' comment. All I can think about is an Ewok covered in honey. I'm giggling as I type this.
Oh well. Whatever else, you're sure going to hell, you disbeliever!
Simon
http://simianfarmer.com
I have that problem too when it comes to religion. It's like when Pat Robertson comes out and squawks something remarkably stupid and vitriolic, and then later that day he pukes out an apology and his dim-witted, pseudo-Christian flock forgive him.
-Dan
http://journals.aol.com/dpoem/TheWisdomofaDistractedMind/
Couldn't agree more with Simon.
Religion has less to do with God and more to do with an attempt to control the masses.
If you commit sins but can never be redeemed then why change. Religion wants you to correct the error of your ways and go back to donating to the collection plate.
It would look pretty cheesy though if they denied the deathbed guy on the basis of he had no money to drop at that moment, so they let everybody have the same chance.
If there is a God, He (or She) doesn't care what denomination you are, what prayers you say or how much you give to your church.
All He/She cares about is how you live your life and you are better to figure out what that means on your own. The local minister will just end up confusing you.
If there is no god, (I'm paraphrasing Paul here) better that you just do the best you can to be a good person for your own gratification and self-respect.
More honest that way anyhow.
Doncha think?
Paul, I also think you're going to the land of flames, just cuz sometimes you're such a pain.
I'll half agree with you on this one Paul. I've got no problem with the logic that someone can lead a bad life but that an apology on their deathbed would make it all ok. It's worth remembering that they believe the apology has to be sincere, and not just as a convenient get-out-of-hell free card. I couldn't go murdering people all the livelong day and then on my death bed go "ok, I'm sorry now. Hehehe. Suckers."
What can I say, I'm a believer in forgiveness (when the apology is sincere) and if there was a God, I'd hope that it would be too.
I will agree that the idea that you could go to hell despite leading a good life just because you don't happen to believe in a god or follow a given set of (ever-changing) traditions, doesn't sound too fair. Really, I think an eternity of being burned seems a little excessive no matter what your crime (yes, even mullets).
I wonder if a god would be willing to consider the argument of the 8th amendment.
If Leviticus is anything to go by, however, I think we might be out of luck.
-Alec
Sorry, I know I've had my say but would like to respond to something bpslider seems to be suggesting. I've mentioned before that I'm an atheist, and I've pointed out my share of the contradictions I see with religion and certain religious beliefs in the past, but I do have to come to their defence a bit. I will not say that religion is *never* about control or money at times. You can find plenty of examples! But it's unfair to imply this is always the case or that's all it's about. Whether they're right or wrong, whether or not (like all of us) they hold contradictory beliefs, the majority of priests mean well and do more good than you perhaps realize. It's too easy to pick up on the bad things and disregard everything else about them. Most people who become priests don't say to themselves "this is how I can control people and get money. Bah ha ha."
I had enough years in church when I was younger that I've interacted with numerous types of priests. One of them seemed to be slightly about fear and control, and there were several times I went home in disgust after hearing a sermon about why gay marriage is wrong. However, most of the priests most of the time were talking about crazy things like helping out the needy, seeking justice, and being good people. And they rarely referred to anything that suggested "or else." They were just people that wanted to make a positive difference in the world, just like many atheists and agnostics I know. The fact that they are involved in organized religion doesn't undo what good they do or suddenly make everything they say invalid (it's especially unfair to judge all religion and the clergy based on people and events seen on television!).
Again, I'm not saying you can't find bad apples or that many aspects of religion (past and present) aren't very problematic, but it's not fair to dismiss the entire institution and those involved in
No, God knows sincerity from desperately just trying to cover bases, hon.
be well,
Dawn
No offense to the atheists--I used to think I was one of you--then I shifted to agnostic, which made more sense--then life events led me to construct my own ideas of a higher power that, at best, are LOOSELY based on the bible (maybe just a few pages) and several other religions. My question is this:
Does it not require just as much faith to say there is no God as it does to say there is? Yes, I am well aware of all the loopholes in the bible--that's not what I'm talking about. I mean, God is an unprovable commodity. You cannot say with any degree of certainty that he does not exist any more that a crazed, bible-wielding, Christian fanatic can prove he does without a certain degree of faith (this was the epiphany that began the shift to agnosticism). Is that not a paradox?
Though religion will seldom come up, if your interested in other random thoughts I think merit discussion, or would like to respond to me, please visit:
http://daydreamed.blogspot.com/
I also apologise for a second post here but just wanted to clarify my earlier comments.
I would agree almost entirely with aleclynch, in that the individuals of the various churches in todays day and age do not fall in anyway into my earlier generalization.
The earlier comments were directed at the creators of the doctrine, which for the most part seems so hard to reconcile by todays worshippers.
In today's churches they simply resist allowing any changes to this doctrine because they feel it will discredit the church as a whole.
If God wrote this doctrine as they claim, they cannot very easily go about changing it now just because the overall populace has become intelligent enough to find holes and cotradictions in it.
As you can probably tell, I do not believe God wrote it, nor do I believe he divinely gifted someone else to write it. I believe gospels and korans and all the rest are mankinds attempts at interpreting God's will and word as they saw it.
In the process, I believe these writings were manipulated to allow the religious authorities to keep control over an otherwise fairly unruly group of humans.
Today's religions (fanatics aside) are probably closer to God's intent than ever before but the originating doctrines are (in my opinion) not anything I want to base my beliefs on.
Sorry if I appeared to be tarring with a wide brush there.
Thanks
I'd just like to say that the comments here have been excellent, and do bring up something that many of us atheists forget. 95% of people who claim to believe in God do not shoot at abortion doctors, or fly airplanes into buildings, or condemn whole states just because they got some bad weather. Most religious people are quite content to go about their lives and their beliefs without shoving them down other people's throats. It's just too bad that the most outrageous 5% get so much visibility.
-Paul
I just can't stay away from this thread!
Yrkcllgegy, as one of those atheists, I'm certainly not offended by anything you say, but I do disagree with you. I don't think your using "Faith" as it is commonly understood or used. You're entirely correct that there is no way to prove god doesn't exist and, like most atheists, I wouldn't say that I *know* there is no god.
However, there is a big difference between having faith in something, and simply not being 100% sure about something.
Most atheists (that I know) are atheists because they've examined the evidence and arguments for all sides, and have come to the conclusion that, as best as they can tell, there is no god. I'm not unwilling to say I *might* be wrong or that I wouldn't change my opinion if enough evidence was presented to me that I found convincing, but that doesn't make me agnostic. On the other hand, my grandmother, for instance, would always believe in God (and a very specific view of that god) on Faith alone, and evidence and arguments would never play a part in maintaining or destroying that Faith. She would never say "well, I have faith in god, but sure, I could always be wrong."
I can't prove that a new episode of "Lost" is going to be on tonight or know for certain it won't get preempted, but isn't it kind of a misuse of the word to say I've got Faith that it will be a new episode? :)
I've just read this entry and all the comments as well. The question running through my head was, would a good god allow Adolph Hitler entrance into heaven if he repented at his death? The church would probably use suicide as an excuse to get out of answering this one but I don't swallow that line because many good people have committed suicide; people can become sick in the head as they can become sick in the body.
Using the example of King David; he committed sins for which he should have been punished by death but he repented during his lifetime. Yet, he suffered the *consequenses* of his sin for the rest of his life.
Should you care to really investigate the word "hell" you will find that is a mistranslation in the Christian Greek scriptures. Actually, there is no such place as hell; the Jewish don't even believe in it and Christ was a Jew.
Dianna
Be careful in how you lump Christians together. As a Catholic, what's required is an innerconversion of heart and then if possible, a baptism. That's it. That's all you need. Whether that innerconversion happens in the beginning, middle, or end of your life, if you couple it with a baptism, you are doing good :).
The concept of doing bad all your life and then doing good at the last second? That better be one helluva moving conversion of heart. It's not something to be taken lightly, and nothing something we can assume happens to people before tehy pass.
And lastly, and this bugs the hell out of me regarding all born again Christians - No earthling has any idea what's giong to happen to him or her after they die. Nobody dies fully perfect - which means that God's mercy is needed for everyone. WE're all the same to him. He doesn't measure time, space, or mercy like we do - a liter of mercy for him, better get this guy 7 liters of mercy....
Choose your battles well, and with those grounded in authoritative doctrine. The thousands upon thousands of self-proclaimed theologens have about as much experience as your average classroom teacher.
Warm regards,
Charley
http://journals.aol.com/cdittric77/courage
As previously stated, yes, be careful how you lump Christians together. I am a Christian and I do not believe that you can have a deathbed repentance and automatically get God's forgiveness. However, God knows the heart and he knows each individual's circumstances, which is why he is the one to judge and not us mere mortals. Christ's sacrifice made it possible for us to be forgiven, but how we live our lives daily shows whether or not we truly are "Christian", as in followers of Christ. Jesus said that the two greatest commandments were to love God with our whole heart, soul and mind and then to love our neighbors as we would love ourselves. Those two commandments pretty much cover everything. So if we are drinking, carousing, breaking man's laws and/or God's laws without ever worrying about consequences, how could we on our deathbed say "I'm sorry" and expect a just and loving God to forgive us? He couldn't and still be true to his four main attributes of love, justice, wisdom and power. "Faith without works is dead," says a scripture that I cannot readily bring to mind (Romans, I think), and that means that just saying we have faith is not going to cut it. We have to show by our "works", by the "fruitage" that we bear, whether we are really dedicated Christians or not. Well, that's just my humble opinion. Just wanted to add my two cents worth. I don't like it when people group all Christendom together and assign to me a belief that I don't hold. "Saying the magic words just right" doesn't get you salvation whether you've been relatively good or bad. Having the right heart condition, trying to obey God's laws, being drawn by him, making an educated dedication to God and continuing to obey him after that dedication, that is what can (may) get you salvation. Only God knows the heart.
Lori
Dear Paul,
(looking at your searing irons in he fireplace)..uh
Paul
that premise I disagree with; simply because it was not said so in that format.
okeydokey I hope....
natalie
ps the proof is in the pudding;
not in the dishes!:)
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