Charley recently posted a couple of entries about a new prayer ring he is starting, and I just had to ask him, "I'm interested, Charley. Do you believe in the power of intercessory prayer? If so, why?"
<teenslang>Ummm, hellooooo. The guy's starting a prayer ring, of course he believes. Duh! What, are you competing in the stupid question of the year contest, or something?</teenslang>
Charley, being the generous guy he is, chose to overlook my glaring lack of ability to grasp the obvious, and responded. His comments are below, followed by my thoughts on the subject.
Hi Paul,I have always had a problem with the idea of intercessory prayer, even back when I sorta, kinda believed in God. The reasons are pretty much twofold.
I do believe in the power of intercessory prayer. My belief comes from both first-hand experience and faith (as in the word's definition...not in a particular denomination or god(s)). In brief:
- A friend was in a terrible accident with catastrophic internal injuries, brain swelling, and a coma. This coma was not induced to limit the swelling, but rather by the trauma of the accident. External injuries, amazingly, were scarce.
The doctors did what they could (at a respectable hospital outside Philadelphia), however he did not come out of his coma or show any signs of recovery. As his heart had stopped and he had stopped breathing for an undetermined amount of time prior to resuscitation at the accident scene, his brain showed a vegetative state (lack of oxygen the believed cause, as well as the swelling).
His other internal injuries were dealt with as best as possible, but due to his fragile health, extensive surgery was not possible.
The family and his friends prayed for the intercession of Padre Pio, 24 hours a day for three days. On the morning of the fourth day he emerged from his coma, fully functioning, with no brain damage.
Upon further evaluation, the doctors also determined that his internal organs had healed and showed no damage or trauma.
There is no justifiable medical cause for this sudden turn of events. Is it possible that his body cured itself? Yes, it is possible. But next to impossible if not nearly completely improbable.
His recovery was actually submitted to the Vatican for research and study as one of Padre Pio's miracles during his canonization proceedings (it was not chosen and subsequently not investigated).
As there is a chance that nature not intercessory prayer worked in this case, this is where my faith in intercessory prayer leads me to believe. He showed no signs of improvement during his time in the hospital. Nothing could be done for him that would completely reverse his maladies.
Something happened inside him, however, and I believe that prayer had a role.
Best regards,
Charley
First, the way I read The Bible, it's a sin. It goes against the very first of the big rules, The Ten Commandments. God states it pretty darn clearly. He says, "I am a jealous God." He doesn't want anyone praying to any entity other than Him. So whether it's Padre Pio, St. Francis, or Holy Mary, Mother of God herself, what we are talking about is iconography, and clearly contravenes the law as given us directly by God himself.
Silly semantic arguments aside, my other reason for doubting the efficacy of intercessory prayer goes to reliability and replicability. It plain doesn't always work. For every miraculous sounding story you tell me, I can reply with an instance where, regardless of who prayed to whom, how hard, and for how long, the person being prayed for still died.
So, clearly, there are rules to this intercessory prayer thing. God has criteria for whose prayers he answers, and whose he flat out ignores. How do we determine that criteria?
How do we know who to pray to? Is there a list somewhere that tells me which saint covers head trauma, and which one covers damaged internal organs, and which one covers incurable diseases? If your friend's family had accidentally prayed to St. Thomas Aquinas, would your friend have died?
How much prayer is necessary? Is there a critical mass, above which your prayers come to somebody's attention? How large does your prayer group have to be? Does God have a calculator where he compares the virtuousness of the sick person against the volume of incoming prayer?
Your answers to all these questions are, of course, "I haven't got a frickin' clue." We don't know why sometimes our prayers appear to be answered, and why sometimes they don't. We just pray. And the results look like this:
Some people who get prayed for get better.
Some people who do not get prayed for get better.
Some people who do not get prayed for do not get better.
Some people who get prayed for do not get better.
Looks like a pretty random distribution to me. But, don't take my word for it. This topic has been studied in quite some depth over the years. The results of the most recent clinical study were released several weeks ago.
"Patients who knowingly received prayers developed more post-surgery complications than did patients who unknowingly received prayers—and patients who were prayed for did no better than patients who weren't prayed for. In fact, patients who received prayers without their knowledge ended up with more major complications than did patients who received no prayers at all."The study also noted that there was no difference in 30 day mortality rates between groups. That is to say that the number of patients who died within the first 30 days after surgery was approximately the same between the groups who received prayer, and the groups who did not.
What does all this prove? Absolutely nothing. Maybe God doesn't do studies. Maybe He refuses to step in when people are "testing" Him. "The Lord works in mysterious ways." "God has a plan, though we may not know it." Yada, yada, yada. All of these things are simply excuses to account for the fact that whenever we attempt to examine the efficacy of intercessory prayer, the results always appear to be completely random.
For every friend in a car accident recovers due to miracle you offer me, I can come back with a friend with lung cancer was prayed for by dozens of people who loved her...still died.
I would also like to examine your anecdote a little more closely, Charley. We exchanged e-mails the other night regarding the church in Forest, Ohio that was hit by lightning during a sermon. I opined that, while news reports support the fact that the event happened, the claims of people that it happened at the exact instant that the preacher called out for a sign from God are hard to accept unquestioningly. Human beings have a well known tendency to embellish stories to make them sound better, and it is entirely plausible that such an embellishment developed around that event in order to turn a good story into a great one. Maybe it did happen exactly the way it has been reported, but I'd want to interview several people who were there and compare their stories looking for inconsistencies before I would accept it.
Likewise, when I look at your story with a critical eye I see it thusly:
Things I accept at face value:
a) Your friend was critically injured.
b) The doctors did all they could for him, but at some point conceded that it was out of their hands.
c) Your friend recovered against the expectations of the medical profession.
Things I question:
a) His family and friends prayed "24 hours a day for three days." Did none of them sleep in 72 hours? I doubt it.
b) "Upon further evaluation, the doctors also determined that his internal organs had healed and showed no damage or trauma." [emphasis mine] This is a remarkable claim, and as such, I cannot accept it at face value. It sounds very much like the same kind of embellishment we talked about before. Were you there at the hospital, or did you hear these things third hand? The only thing that would convince me about this part of the story would be examining the before and after medical reports. I would want to see the initial reports that described the damage to the internal organs, and I would want to see reports from three days later in which a doctor stated that those same organs "showed no damage or trauma."
This is not to say that your friend's recovery wasn't remarkable, but I am inclined to believe that those around him have somewhat exaggerated the tale in order to make it sound more miraculous than it really was.
The technical term for what we are talking about here is confirmation bias. Skeptics tend to refer to this as "counting the hits, and ignoring the misses." For example, your friend's recovery was a solid hit. He was prayed for, and he recovered. However, you fail to account for the number of people in the same hospital who may have died over the same time period, many of whom may have received a similar amount of prayer. Did such 'misses' exist? I don't know. You don't know. You didn't ask. Thatis not an indictment. It's just the way our brains work.
However, if you had to guess, would you say it was likely or unlikely that someone in that hospital, during that time, died, even though he or she was also prayed for by many friends and family members? I would tend to think it was pretty likely. Because that's just the way the world works.
tags:Skepticism, Religion
Edited to add: Charley has responded to this on his blog. I encourage you all to go there and read his further thoughts.
18 comments:
I don't doubt this is one area where folks are going to have to agree to disagree. I'm inclined to think that intercessory prayer does more good for the mental well-being of the pray-ers rather than the corporeal trauma of the pray-ee.
That said though, I wouldn't completely refute it. Nor do I think it's the sort of thing that lends itself well to clinical trials.
Simon
http://simianfarmer.com
Hi Paul,
I answered in my journal :)
Wouldn't fit here.
Be well,
Charley
http://journals.aol.com/cdittric77/courage
Do you realize that if you're right. You are going to become dust bunnies under someone's bed. And that if you are wrong you will dance in hell with no ice water.
It is better to believe than not....hey didn't the really famous star chaser come to the conculsion?
Hey Plittle, want to come to church with on Sunday?
Butterflies, Bunnies, & Balloons......Brenda
I believe that prayers work. do I always get the answer that I want? nope. Do parents always give their child the things the child asks for? Nope. The parent gives the child what the parent believes is the best for the child. I believe it is the same with God. He gives his children what he beleives is best for them.
I can give many examples of prayers not being answered the way I wanted and I can look back and see it was for the best. But I will only give you one right now. My DH and I did foster care. We had a little boy who went to live with his aunt and was no longer in foster care. 13 months after he left, I found out I was pregnant, I was thrilled until complications set in. I was sent to bed to prevent a misscarriage. I begged and pleaded with God to allow me to have my baby. I did have a miscarriage. I was devastated, DH and I had been trying to get pregnant for over 7 years. The next Saturday, the aunt of the little boy called us and asked us if we would take the little boy back, she said all he did was cry and whine. We immediately said yes and went to get him. He is stillhere with us, and we have full custody of him. If Ihad still been pregnant, I would have had to tell her no because my pregnancy was high risk and I would not have been able to care for a 18 month old child. I believe that while I had been praying for God to let me keep my baby, He had another baby in mind for me. You could ask why He even allowed me to get pregnant in the first place. Maybe He did it so that I would lean more fully on Him. I don't know. I try not to question too much but to take things on faith.
I like Simon's point about how it can be good for the mental well being of some, more than anything else.
I have to say though, the idea that it *could* work strikes me as really unfair. I'm glad the person's friend survived despite all odds, but I really don't like the idea that a god would have allowed him to die if people hadn't kept asking him to be spared.
It reminds me of the parable in the bible where Abraham had the conversation with God, asking God to spare a city God was going to destroy if only he could find 50 good people. Then 45. And so on down to 10 (apparently 9 wouldn't be enough?) Again, I find the idea that whether or not a god will exact revenge or spare people depending on how nicely a third party asks on their behalf is...troublesome. If I prayed for someone to die, would that increase the chance that God would kill them, or would a just god not do what was right regardless of my prayers? Anyway, Simon is also right that this is probably a agree to disagree situation.
Mostly though, I'd like respond to something Brenda seems to be suggesting (apologies if I've misunderstood you). I won't bother talking about how unfair it seems that I'd be sent to eternal fires for not believing in god (well...I won't other than just stating that I won't I suppose ;). What I really want to point out is that belief is not voluntary. As an athiest, I can't just *make* myself believe in god just because if he's real I might be sent to hell. Whether you believe in god or you don't, you hold that belief as a result of reasons. If you think I'm wrong and that belief is voluntary, just try making yourself belief in something you don't. Right now, can you make yourself believe that a purple unicorn is behind you? I'm guessing you can't.
I might well be wrong. There might very well be a god who is going to send me to hell forever for not
Dear Paul,
humm..what an interesting topic!
It is also a topic which will not have an exact answer.
why? because you have departed form the realm of science and entered the realm of faith :):)
natalie
You are a glutton for punishment.
Sometimes you pray for something, and the answer is yes, sometimes no, sometimes a gray in between...that is all part of the belief.
You and Charley are as far as two people could be on this subject...
and I agree with your mom.
be well,
Dawn
Brenda? Ya know I love ya, but Pascal's Wager is based upon the logical fallacy of a false dillema, and that makes it tough to swallow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager
-Dan
Hi Paul coming by the way of charley:) I have no idea what intercessory prayer is so i just left a comment in charley journal:) Very interesting thoughts Have a great weekend
Deb
Well written Paul and I enjoyed your logic. I'd just like to add a bible scripture, if I may.
1 Timothy 2:5)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (KJV)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (WBS)
"A mediator is a person who intervenes between parties to effect a reconciliation. The scriptures tell us there is only *ONE* mediator."
And one more scripture, if I may; taken from the TEN COMMANDMENTS. I believe this is the scripture you were referring to above. I included two translations. The most popular is the King James (KJV) however, no one speaks in Old English today.
KJV - 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
TEV - 4 "Do not make for yourselves images of anything in heaven or on earth or in the water under the earth. Do not bow down to any idol or worship it, because I am the LORD your God and I tolerate no rivals. I bring punishment on those who hate me and on their descendants down to the third and fourth generation. But I show my love to thousands of generations of those who love me and obey my laws.
Dianna
I believe in the power of asking who I call God for an intercession. I believe if you have faith, he will answer. The answer is not always what you expect, but your intercession is granted.
Too much emphasis is placed on the Church, rather than the faith. The Church does not automatically make you have faith. It comes from your heart, your standards, your beliefs. To argue faith and science, to ask for proof of God's abilities or existence is futile. Either you believe or you don't. There is no other answer.
Alec's more elaborate comment backs up what I was thinking about the benefit of prayer... for the pray-ers.
I take strong exception to Brenda's comment regarding it being better to believe on the chance that if you don't, you'll go to hell for being a non-believer?? While I took that to be a rather flippant comment, if she was serious, I'd rather not believe in a god that's gonna send me to hell just for not believing in him. Thank you very much.
I've never heard it described as Pascal's Wager before, but Dan summed it up succinctly.
And for Dianna, still in a bit of an argumentative mood, I suppose: quoting bible scripture as a means of reinforcing one's point - when directed at an atheist - is sort of like trying to soak a duck in a rain storm.
Simon
http://simianfarmer.com
I always admire someone who jumps feet first into the fray, who grabs a stick and gives the hornets' nest a good stir. Interesting entry here.
I'm reminded of the George Carlin bit about how he quit believing in any of the organized religions and now prays to Joe Pesci and it all turns out about the same. Of course, you can always fall back on the "God works in mysterious ways" bit.
Reply to Simianfarmer:
Simon, I believe I made my point and it went over your head. The point is, how can people who say they believe in the Christian God overlook what He tells them? If He tells them there is only ONE mediator, why do they ignore Him and seek others? Maybe that's one reason why I'm agnostic; the entire matter doesn't make sense to me. In addition, Paul is the one who brought the subject up to begin with.
Who's arguing?
Dianna
Hey, Paul .... This was a really interesting entry. I consider myself a very spiritual, though not extremely religious person ( meaning that although I consider myself a Christian, and have a strong faith in God, there isn't a religion that I can really align myself with ... too many differences of opinion on certain subjects) . I had the same problem as you with the question of why prayer seems to 'work' for one person, and not for another. When I was going through some rough times, and about to give up, I read a book called 'When Bad Things Happen To Good People'. Written by a rabbi, his seemed to be the only explanation that made sense to me .... and to my son, who was quite 'anti-everything' at the time. It's worth taking a look at a totally different way of seeing God's place in our lives. His way of looking at things makes alot more sense. Tina
p.s. .... I enjoy reading your entries on belief and nonbelief. They are sincere and uncritical attempts at trying to voice your opinions, and understand the opinions of those who think differently than you.
I have enjoyed reading your journal as well as the comments which it has generated. I believe that people worship God as a way of giving one another comfort in knowing that they are of one mind and consider themselves to be a group rather than just individuals. I enjoy reading about the historical findings that brought about the written New Testament. It has been shown that the 4 Gospels were penned by annoymous authors using oral tradition as well as written manuscipts. I don't make a "belief" out of evolution, I just read and am presented information that would give evidence in support of a scientific reason that it occured. I don't go around and preach that evolution is how one must think about creation. It is up to the individual to consider how life could have been created. I don't feel the need to make my thinking a specific point that someone needs to know about me. mark
http://journals.aol.com/mtrib2/MarksDailyJournal
http://journals.aol.com/mtrib2/landscapeartwork
I agree - a very interesting post indeed. You bring up many good points. As for me, I've never really known what to believe. I mean, whose religion is the "right" one to follow anyway? Or are there many diff. gods to pick from and as long as you're being led, you're all set?
I do think miracles happen, but I can't say for sure who had a hand in them.
I believe in praying straight to God. Don't need anyone between Him and myself. I look at intercessory praying as meaning I will pray for God to do something for you (as opposed to me).
God does answer your prayers. He has 3 answers to them:
No
Yes
Not Now.
People that get prayed for that get better is probably the prayers and their own beliefs in God. Surely if everyone around the sick person was a beliver in prayer the sick person was also a beliver and maybe he was also praying for himself.
People that don't get prayed for but get better maybe it is because God still wants them to do something or to come to believe in Him.
People that are prayed for that don't get better? God answered the prayer. He said No, it is this person's time. Sorry.
Kathy
Post a Comment